Good Luck in the Bronx, Hiroki
January 13, 2012 at 8:24 pm | Posted in Hiroki Kuroda | 61 Comments
As you’ve probably seen just about everywhere on the planet by now, the Yankees have had a helluva night, signing former Dodger Hiroki Kuroda – as I sort of predicted days ago by pointing out that his translator had already joined the Yankees – and shockingly trading Jesus Montero and Hector Noesi to Seattle for Michael Pineda and a prospect. (As a sidenote, it’s amazing to see what a young catcher who can hit gets in trade, isn’t it? Blargh.)
I imagine that a lot of Dodger fans are pretty upset that Kuroda left for an East Coast team after refusing a trade in July, particularly when the $10m deal he’s reportedly accepted is less than the $12m he made with the Dodgers last year. If you’d have told me this was going to be the outcome in July when he wouldn’t accept the trade, I’d probably have been all fire and brimstone about it. Now, I’m not so sure about that, because I feel like we don’t know exactly why Kuroda’s return didn’t work out; despite appearances, I’m not convinced it’s as simple as “Kuroda didn’t want to leave in July, but he had no problem doing so now.”
Think about it; over the last two offseasons, Ned Colletti has shown a clear preference to do as much of his free-agent shopping as soon as he possibly can. (As prices start to drop, by the way, this is only going to make some of the deals we’ve seen look worse, a situation I’ll look at more closely in a few weeks.) Conversely, we don’t know how long it took Kuroda to decide whether he wanted to stay in America or return to Japan. Reports only surfaced over the last few days that Kuroda wanted to play in MLB in 2012 for sure, and by that time, the Dodger rotation was long since filled – despite reports that Colletti was reportedly in contact with Kuroda’s agent as recently as last week. It could very well have been merely an issue of timing, not an issue of “loyalty”, and I’m guessing we’ll never know.
So best of luck in New York, Hiroki. It’ll be fascinating to see you on the big stage.
In the meantime, here’s some various combinations of 2012 Dodgers that will add up to $10m:
Juan Uribe ($8m) + Matt Treanor ($0.85m) + Adam Kennedy ($0.8m) + Mike MacDougal ($0.65m) = $10.3m
Juan Rivera ($4m) + Aaron Harang ($3m) + Mark Ellis ($2.5m) + Tony Gwynn ($0.85m) = $10.35m
Matt Guerrier ($4.75m) + Chris Capuano ($3m) + Jerry Hairston ($2.25m) = $10m
That doesn’t take into account, of course, that many of those are the lower-priced first year of a two-year deal which will increase in 2013.
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I think the Dodgers just assumed Kuroda would be too expensive, or Colletti wanted to fill other holes first, then afterwards he didnt have enough money in the budget? IM sure Kuroda wanted to come back, but Colletti had spent all the available surplus on all the mediocre vets. Colletti just didn’t spend wisely. Kuroda should have never been allowed to pitch for any other team, Its disgusting. but at least we wont have to see Kuroda pitching against the Dodgers hopefully ever.
Comment by Format— January 13, 2012 #
I agree with you, the entire situation just seems too strange. Of course, the market coming down now may have something to do with it, but I don’t think that explains everything. There must have been something going on behind the scenes that we don’t know about.
I can’t wait until we can stop worrying about such small amounts of money again.
Comment by zach— January 13, 2012 #
Have no proof to back it up but bottom line I think is that the budget Ned had to deal with may have changed-hence he signed two mediocre pitchers and other mediocre players.
I believe as the season was ending Ned said that the his budget was going to be the same and perhaps even a bit higher. Ned found out that his budget was cut and Kuroda was still on the fence and perhaps not in love with the Dodger financial picture, Ned felt he had to act and signed who he signed.
If there were real discussions with his agent in the last week, it seems Ned could not even offer him 10million.
Comment by Louis— January 13, 2012 #
Agreed. I am a lifelong Rams fan. Which has been very painful. However, our NEW OWNER just won a bidding war for Jeff Fisher. Fisher wanted to make sure the Rams would spend on elite coaches and player development. Kroenke the new owner just proved to Rams fans that he wants to win. He is proving through spending a desire to build a winner. As bad as things have been for us this decade it is awesome to have something to look forward too. I hope when Frank is finally gone we get an owner that we deserve. One who wants to build and can afford a winner.
Comment by Danny Barbettini— January 14, 2012 #
Amen brother!
Comment by west coast ram— January 15, 2012 #
Best of luck Hiroki in NY, and thanks for your time in Dodger Blue. The Dodgers offseason should have started with resigning Kuroda for one year to start after Kershaw. Go Blue!
Comment by dodgerccp— January 13, 2012 #
Best of luck to Kuroda. I think he was a class act. He was certainly entitled to do what he wanted with his no-trade clause. That was his decision.
Another thing that adds up to $10m or just short of it – McCourt legal fees in his Fox fight that amounted to nothing at all since they all agreed to just keep the deal in place. Total speculation, mainly for snarky purposes.
Comment by RS— January 13, 2012 #
I seem to remember seeing that the legal fees had reached 17 million. So… Hiroki and another 7 mil for real upgrades instead of friggin Capuano and Harang.
Comment by Dave Pomerantz— January 16, 2012 #
Colletti why oh why. Man you suck Dodgers would of had Kuroda.
Comment by Alfonso M— January 13, 2012 #
The Kuroda-Martin battery in pinstripes will make me vomit the first time I see it.
Comment by Chris S.— January 13, 2012 #
very disappointing. do the Dodgers at least get a draft pick out of this?
Comment by Carl— January 13, 2012 #
Nope.
Comment by Taylor Maricle— January 13, 2012 #
as i thought. Also, looking at those salary combinations, can’t help but wonder who we could have if it wasn’t for that $22m of deferred salary this year. While deferrals are part of the game, to still be paying for Manny, Pierre, Andruw, and Garland, among others, makes this signing even more disappointing.
Comment by Carl— January 13, 2012 #
No worries! It’s all coming to an end for Ned Colletti. what you should write about are G.M.’s that might be a Dodgers in 4 months
Comment by jaydavis— January 13, 2012 #
Wonder how Hiroki will do in pinstripes. He’s always been a bit prone to the long ball, so I have to think the new Yankee Stadium won’t be too kind to him. Although, this is all null, because for the first time in his career, he’ll get some run support.
Comment by Paul— January 13, 2012 #
Not really, actually. He’s always had an above average GB%, and an average HR/FB ratio, which translates to a HR rate that’s a little below average. He had a bad year for that last year, but besides that he’s been pretty good about it. It’s just that compared to Kershaw and Billingsley, both of whom seem to have a particular knack for preventing homers, Kuroda may look a little homer-prone.
Comment by Bip— January 14, 2012 #
Kuroda has always been one of my favorite players. I could never hold it against him that he waived his no trade clause, and even being on the Yankees won’t make me root against him. I’m mainly glad he’s moved to an American league team as opposed to one that we’d have to face.
Comment by Bip— January 14, 2012 #
Or that he didn’t waive his no trade clause? Do I have that backwards?
Comment by Bip— January 14, 2012 #
That’s right: did not waive the clause (meaning he could have then been traded)
Comment by RS— January 14, 2012 #
Met him at spring training 2 years ago and although his english was limited he couldn’t have been nicer and accommodating for autographs and pictures.
Comment by west coast ram— January 15, 2012 #
Everyone thought Kuroda wanted to remain a Dodger out of loyalty when he refused the trade to NYY at the deadline last year. It always boils down to what is best for the player and/or his agent. In this case, Kuroda decided the East Coast wasn’t so bad compared to the non-offers he was getting out west.
Still, I wish him well and am happy he is not in the NL West.
Comment by SamAdams— January 14, 2012 #
Kuroda signing as a free agent with the Yankees does not mean he did not want to remain a Dodger out of loyalty last season. Personally, I always take a man at his word unless he gives me reason not to believe him. Nothing Kuroda has done/said makes me believe he was lying when he said he wanted to honor his contract with the Dodgers. I’m sure other factors came into play such as family, home, etc. but who can blame a person for being concerned about those things? Especially when we’re talking about a person who is playing a game as a career, rather than doing something more critical for a living. Colletti has shown a knack for jumping the gun this season and in the past. If I had to point a finger any where, that is where mine would be pointed for the reason why Kuroda is not still in Dodger blue. Guy took a baseball off the forehead, one of the top 5 ugliest things I’ve seen happen on the field and yet still went out and made his starts for the team shortly after. Wish we had more players like Hiro. I definitely wish him the best of luck.
Comment by Wil— January 14, 2012 #
Just a guess, but even though I’d have liked Kuroda in a Dodger uniform, I see his age and wear and tear bringing his effectiveness down this coming year. Probabky not to the depths of Harang, Lilly, and Capuano, but…..
Comment by Dale— January 14, 2012 #
This is not surprising at all. Kuroda probably feels he has one more good year left and he wants a shot at a title. Where is he going to get that? In L.A.? Hell no.
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I don’t blame Kuroda for this. It is completely understandable. He deserves his shot at a World Series Championship and he will get it with the Yankees.
Comment by badger3— January 14, 2012 #
It also seems that Kuroda dropped his price since it was a least rumored he was looking for 13-14 mil earlier in the winter. That may have pushed Coletti away early on with the budget contrainsts as I bet if he could have been had for 10 mil they could have worked a 7 mil 3 deferred deal to keep him in LA, unless of course Kuroda did truly want a chance at the WS.
Best of luck Kuroda, a solid pitcher and teammate.
Comment by Jon#7#22— January 14, 2012 #
This is exactly why it’s so dumb for Colletti to be out early setting the market instead of waiting for it to develop. He absolutely could’ve had Kuroda, and maybe Maholm instead of Capuano and Harang.
Comment by Dave Pomerantz— January 16, 2012 #
Vomit. It’s one thing for Colletti to make these mistakes…it’s another for us to KNOW he’s going to make these mistakes and then for us to have to sit idly by and watch him make them. We’re bargain shoppers … the bargains aren’t had at the start of FA. So sad. At least we’ll have all these terrible deals next year to remind us of Colletti, even if he’s gone.
Comment by Doppel— January 14, 2012 #
The Dodgers are a sad shell of an organization. A franchise with their history, and operating in the second largest market in the country, should be doing much better than this. But, this is what predatory capitalists do: it’s a form of economic rape. Hopefully, we are at or near the bottom of that trajectory. McCourt will get his money and move on to some other victim. Maybe the Dodgers will be bought by a more enlightened, or at least a more-interested-in-the-game entity. Maybe not. We shall soon find out.
Comment by FrankenNed McColletti BeGone— January 14, 2012 #
If i ever see Mr Ned, i will have to have a baseball on me, so just before i bury it, i’ll say Hey Mr Colletti could you autograph my ball? Just sign it ‘Worst GM EVER!’
Comment by Native Angeleno— January 14, 2012 #
Ned gave Schmidt 3 yr 45 mill and couldn’t give kuroda 12-14 mill?Damn it sucks losing one of your best players.good luck bk!
Comment by mike— January 14, 2012 #
HK*
Comment by mike— January 14, 2012 #
I don’t blame Kuroda and I wish him luck at some level, but I hate the Yanks too much to want them to have any real success. I hope they’re swept in the first round of the playoffs. Go Blue!
Comment by Boys of Blue— January 14, 2012 #
as usual, 100% of the blame falls on ned colletti. There is a special place reserved in sport hell for him.
Hiring Ned Colletti is for me, the #1 sin of Frank McCourt.
Comment by Greg— January 14, 2012 #
I fail to see how Colletti is to blame here. All of those equations on how four Dodgers would equal the 10 million simply means that if they signed Kuroda they would have wholes in three other areas. Colletti hasn’t made the best moves, but given his budget he could have done worse. McCourt was asked if they were going after Fielder and he responded that it was up to Ned. Translation, “I’m not spending any more money on this team and blame Ned for not getting Fielder.” The blame here has to go to McCourt, who has obviously handcuffed his general manager to the point that we were unable to keep are own free agent pitcher while having to settle on cheaper talent.
Comment by john m— January 14, 2012 #
It’s not the salary math that makes Colletti at fault but 1. as Mike has mentioned, Colletti’s obtuseness in being the first out the gate instead of waiting for value (though this is not directly to do with Kuroda); 2. Colletti KNEW he had a limited payroll so it makes sense for him to bide his time to see where the market shakes out especially because he’s bidding on lower tier talent; 3. because of Colletti’s signing of lower tier talent, Kuroda saw the team composition and said, “well, fuck that.” Why resign for the Dodgers when there’s no shot of them going to the World Series?
Comment by Greg— January 15, 2012 #
You don’t see that you could replace Uribe with practically anyone and get similar production, whilst saving the eight million dollars? You don’t tgink that’s Agent Fucktard’s fault? Ok…
Comment by @BrocNessMonster— January 15, 2012 #
He was signed last season, and no one expected him to suck like the way he did. He was coming off a 21 home run season and you think anyone could have similar production for a second baseman? The fact that we are the Los Angeles Dodgers and have a payroll of 90 million is disgusting, but we do continue to blame Colletti when he has very few options. If you look at last offseason Werth and Crawford got huge contracts while middle relievers were getting 4-5 million a year. So, this offseason he tried to be aggressive and fill his wholes quickly. I would love to have Kuroda back, but if he signed him right away we would have no money to sign anyone else. That would mean Russ Mitchell playing third base all year long and Trent Oltjen would be our fourth outfielder.
Comment by john m— January 15, 2012 #
That the only other offer on the table for Juan Uribe was the Gints (the team with whom he won a world series, so there was always going to be inflation) at more than a million dollar less should tell us all we would ever need to know about Uribe.
Or look at the collection of stiffs who’re making more money than they did at their “peak” says all we need to know about Ned Colletti. Yes, Colletti operates under constraints but he does himself no service when he waves wads of cash at players way past their peaks.
Comment by Greg— January 15, 2012 #
Hell, Russ Mitchell could probably give you those same empty counting stats Uribe compiled the season previous to signing the deal, 20 home runs or whatever it was.
Comment by @BrocNessMonster— January 16, 2012 #
I’m not a fan of Uribe, but I would rather have him in the line-up that Russ Mitchell. I doubt he would have 20 home runs in the majors.
Comment by john m— January 16, 2012 #
Colletti really blew it. Kuroda will have a standout year with the Yankees and win 18-20 games.
The Dodgers are the organization of those that fail upward. Colletti has no business being a GM, when bb fans reading this site could do better making the trades.
McCourt will fail upward by selling the Dodgers for a massive profit.
Comment by philipms— January 14, 2012 #
Here’s an interesting article that somewhat refutes a lot of the hate we’ve directed at Ned regarding Capuano and Harang: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/where-the-free-agent-value-was-last-winter/
I still don’t like the deals because they were for two years, but it seems there’s still a bright side to these signings.
Comment by Bip— January 14, 2012 #
I always compare that kind of thing to saying, “ya, my cat’s shit might stink but it stinks less than your dogs’!” When the question should always have been, why are you smelling shit to begin with?
Comment by Greg— January 15, 2012 #
@Bip – The problem is that we actually could have afforded to extend Kemp, re-sign Kuroda, and sign either Fielder or Reyes to backloaded deals this off-season. There was no need to re-sign Rivera and MacDougal or sign Hairston, Kennedy, Capuano, Harang, or Mark Ellis. We have cheap replacements at those positions. If we had signed Reyes and re-signed Kuroda to backloaded deals, we could have moved Gordon to 2B, kept Sellers as utility off the bench, kept Loney at 1B, Sands at LF/RF, Tolleson at RP, Eveland as our 5th starter until Eovaldi or Webster was ready, traded Hawksworth to the Cubs for Blake DeWitt, brought up St. Clair as a LOOGY, kept Gwynn, and brought up Jamie Hoffman. Or if Ned didn’t want to play Hoffman, he could have offered Rivera half of what he actually offered him, and waited for Rivera to accept after not receiving any other offers. It’s really that simple.
Comment by The Dude Abides— January 15, 2012 #
Gordon’s not moving to 2B…
Comment by Jon#7#22— January 15, 2012 #
“There was no need to re-sign Rivera and MacDougal or sign Hairston, Kennedy, Capuano, Harang, or Mark Ellis.” That article is only about generic starters, so Rivera, Dougs, Hairston, Kennedy and Ellis have nothing to do with this. I totally agree that Rivera, Doug and Kennedy are pointless signings, but Hairston will probably have some value, and no, we don’t have a cheap replacement for Mark Ellis.
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If we pay Cap and Harang $11M a year and they are worth 3 wins between them, which is certainly possible, then we’re getting value similar to what we would for Reyes or Fielder. Reyes is a 5 win player with injury risks, so 17 mil a year for him, which is what he got, is comparable to what we’re paying for Harang and Reyes. Prince Fielder isn’t even really a 6 win player, and I think everyone agrees he’s getting at least $20M a year, which also is comparable value. The most persuasive criticism of these signings in my mind is the scarcity of spots in the starting rotation, and Cap and Harang will be filling two of them for two seasons, whereas Kuroda might have also give us 3 wins at $11M, but at the cost of only one roster spot.
Comment by Bip— January 16, 2012 #
The other issue is that Capuano is a much bigger injury risk than Reyes, and the 2011-12 version of Harang isn’t much better than Eveland.
Comment by The Dude Abides— January 16, 2012 #
I think 5M a year for Cap isn’t bad, but I really have no clue how Harang finagled 6M a year. Oh wait, it was 14 wins and a 3.4 ERA.
Comment by Bip— January 17, 2012 #
Not sure it refutes anything, it may even back up the angst we have for Ned, if you read all the way to the end of the article…
“there’s usually a lot of value to be had in giving out a one year deal to this kind of starting pitcher.”
Ned gave them both 2 year deals. One year is the key to getting value.
“there’s often not a lot of difference between the results you can get from a reclamation project versus a “proven veteran” that wants a multi-year deal. In fact, the four pitchers who signed two year deals last winter (Jake Westbrook, Carl Pavano, Jorge de la Rosa, and Kevin Correia) were all demonstrably worse than the numbers posted by the one year guys.”
So they’re saying he could have gotten the same value with a reclamation project as what he did with the backloaded 2 year deals he handed out, had he been a smart shopper.
Comment by Wil— January 15, 2012 #
“So they’re saying he could have gotten the same value with a reclamation project as what he did with the backloaded 2 year deals he handed out, had he been a smart shopper.” Cap and Harang are reclamation projects, and, if you read my post, I say that I don’t like that he signed them to two year deals.
Comment by Bip— January 16, 2012 #
I think it’s likely that this has nothing to do with Colletti’s impotence. I think Kuroda just decided he had one year left over here, and he wanted a shot at a title. And THAT isn’t going to happen in L.A. next year. I’ll give Ineptoletti a pass on this one.
Comment by badger3— January 15, 2012 #
as I mentioned above, one thing is directly related to the other! That the Dodgers won’t be competitive next year is exactly the result of Colletti’s incompetence.
Comment by Greg— January 15, 2012 #
So for $2MM more we probably could have had Oswalt instead of Harang. Isnt it Ned’s job to know the bargains aren’t signed in November, they’re signed in January?
Comment by @BrocNessMonster— January 16, 2012 #
Oswalt signed for $5M? Cuz remember Harang is only getting $3M next year….
Comment by Jon#7#22— January 16, 2012 #
Oswalt hasn’t signed anywhere yet. I also don’t really look at Harang as a $3m player, because he didn’t sign for 1/3. If all these backloaded Colletti deals were just one year and what they’re getting paid in 2012, I’d probably love them all.
Comment by Mike— January 16, 2012 #
I look at 2/12 as 6 per, and I know he gasbt signed but the reports are saying he’ll get $8MM. That might not end up being the case, but the point was that the good deals are in January in February, not November.
Comment by @BrocNessMonster— January 16, 2012 #
Hasn’t^
Comment by @BrocNessMonster— January 16, 2012 #
I think it should be considered that there might be several veteran players who did not want to come to Los Angeles because of – well, because of obvious reasons.
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We just have to wait. April 1st seems like a long way off to me. But, as long as McCourt holds the keys, this organization is in limbo. Ned did what he could, and he didn’t do the Dodgers any favors with those two year contracts and all the back loading that was done. But, he will gone soon too. I figure this year will be a wash. The Dodgers will get back to 3.5 million through the gates, and all we be well by 2013.
Comment by badger3— January 16, 2012 #
I think the problem a lot of people have is that the question isn’t really: Ned, why didn’t you do anything? In which case the response “he did what he could” makes sense. I think it’s more like: why did you do all this crap? We’d have been better off pursuing Kuroda and Fielder and then resigning some of these other players. We’d have been better off maybe trading some pitching prospects like Seattle did. Sure, yes, of course, none of us knows what’s really going on. But from what actually has transpired, circumstantial evidence strongly indicates that Ned poorly played his hand.
Comment by RS— January 17, 2012 #
Yeah, one is left to wonder what, if anything, was the strategy involved here.
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Why not just sign nobody, allow Sands and whoever else out of non roster invitees win a job and let the new owners do what they will after 4-1?
Comment by badger3— January 17, 2012 #
Sorry – was unclear. “resigning these other players” – i meant to say trying to resign some of our 2011 players (Blake, Carroll).
Comment by RS— January 17, 2012 #